Public Witness Statement of FSV – DA.

I… disabled Fire Service Veteran of…will state as follows:

1. I went to a meeting at Lancashire Fire & Rescue service HQ on the 28th February 2008 with my wife with the fear of the police being in attendance, yet I knew I had done nothing wrong and yet I could not explain to myself why I had this terrible feeling.

2. After five minutes waiting, Ms J. Hutchinson came out from a main office(Human Resources) to meet us in reception and after some small talk she took us through this main office to a side office.

3. Upon entering the main office everyone in the office stared at us and I got the gut wrenching feeling that whatever the problem was we seemed guilty even before anything had begun!

4. I had the distinct impression that my case had already been discussed in this open office because such was the intimidation I felt as we ran this gauntlet of unwelcoming stares. Not a welcoming smile in sight.

5. We were conducted to this side office and introduced to Ms.J. Wisdom LCC Pensions Services and Mr B.J.Hamilton Head of ‘Human’ Resources. We were ushered to our seats in a peremptory manner at a small dining room type table on one side of which myself and my wife sat down.

6. The seating arrangements within the room only served to increase the tension I felt and I knew that whatever was going to happen was not going to be very pleasant.

7. The setup reminded me very much of those rare occasions in the past when I had been a witness at a formal disciplinary hearing.

8. I instinctively knew that I was not going to be allowed time to collect my thoughts or to be allowed to ask for any form of ‘accused friend’. This stampede was deliberately designed and fabricated to impose fear and consternation.

9. Mr. B.J. Hamilton sat on my right at the head of this small table. On his right immediate right, across the corner of the table and directly opposite to me sat Ms.J. Hutchinson and on her right at the bottom of the table sat Ms. J. Wisdom directly opposite Mr.B.J Hamilton.

10. These seating positions become relevant, as you will understand later.

11. When the meeting/interrogation started my worst fears were realised I knew immediately that this hostile set up was meant to intimidate us, and to be certain that it did.

12. Hamilton told me the reason why I was there and then asked if I had claimed any benefits since I retired. Page 1 of 5

13. Throughout his opening gambit he kept holding up and waving three sheets of A4 paper close to my face in a very agitated and physically threatening manner.

14. He then stated that I had been overpaid by £65,410.87 from the pension fund.

15. To say I suffered a shock is an understatement. I simply could not take this in let alone comprehend the implications of benefit fraud that were also being suggested to me.

16. When I collected my thoughts my reply was that I did not know that DSS/DWP money was deductible from my pension and that no one had told me that this was so when I retired.

17. This seemed to antagonise Hamilton for some reason, either because I answered at all, or because he did not like my answer.

18. At this he raised his voice and shouted “we are not going down that road we are not here to discuss that”.

19. I was shocked and taken aback by his bullying attitude and his raised voice.

20. He immediately started to question me about the alleged overpayment and that it would have to be repaid.

21. Still waving the sheets of paper at me he then said “the police will not be involved”. Where had this statement come from? I had made no mention of my inexplicable fears to anyone at the meeting. No one explained that in any event this was a civil matter and I was not made aware of this by the LFRS until 10th March 2008. So throughout this interrogation and for the next week and more the psychological threat of police involvement existed and remained. Mary was simply terrified we would be arrested at our front door in front of the neighbours.

22. Hamilton then thrust the following three papers at my wife though what this had to do with my wife was not made clear to me, or her.

These were:-

1. A DWP handwritten list of payments dating from 4 April 1994 two A4 sheets long.
2. A list of alleged ‘overpayments’ going back to 5 April 1990.

23. Before I had even the opportunity to look at these documents, or to consult with my wife who by this time, as you can imagine, was also in a state of distress and shock, this person Wisdom started to question me as to why the amount paid by the DWP altered with dates that were going back to1994.

24. From where she was sitting she would repeatedly place her finger on an amount under question and at the same time Hamilton would fire a question about something entirely different.

25. Before I could complete my answer to Hamilton, Wisdom would again point to another figure and date and ask yet another question. Page 2 of 5

26. These theatricals continued with a vengeance and determination for some time.

27. I regarded this technique as nothing less than terrorising high pressure interrogation which was intended to confuse and entrap me into saying something that they could manipulate and use against me later. But it was very well rehearsed, scripted, and choreographed, and so it went on.

28. Eventually, when this haranguing ran into a silence because I was unable or unwilling to answer any further questions or respond reasonably to any question raised by Wisdom or Hamilton, Hamilton abruptly and dismissively stated that we should go home and search our house for any letters regarding DWP benefit concerning my qualifying injury.

29. This confused me even more. Why was I supposed to go home and do this? Surely they had all my PRF(Personal Record File) in front of them, or immediately available to them? They simply had to look at them.

30. Later I reflected that one of the logos on the footer of LCFRS and LCCPS letters is a Charter Mark for “Customer Service Excellence” and “Positive about disabled People”.

31. This entire ‘Judge and Jury trial’ did not reflect any of those standards. Here I was a ‘customer’, and ‘disabled’ also, yet in all the years I was a Junior Officer I never spoke to a single member of the public in the humiliating and demeaning manner they spoke to me and my wife.

32. The bullying, traumatic, and humiliating experience that we had just suffered at the hands of very senior members of staff of the LFRS and the LCC PS completely disregarded our human rights and personal dignity. It was disgraceful and shocking.

33. Right from the moment we arrived we were treated and talked to as criminals. It was that awful neither of us could believe it.

34. I had not been allowed to defend myself or even given proper time to answer their questions. I was not asked if I needed time to seek some form of representation. In fact no one even asked if I was an out of trade FBU member which I am.

35. Not a single person present seemed to show any respect, or duty of care for my wife or consideration for her obvious physical distress and embarrassment.

36. Their intentions were clear right from the start in the intimidating manner the table and chairs were prearranged and the pre-arranged position that these people took around this table. The disrespectfully arrogant, aggressive, and hectoring attitudes which they all adopted made it clear that I was guilty before I entered the room and that this was their agreed ‘game’ plan.

37. Virtually the only question I asked in the whole interrogation was… “am I the only one or are there any others in this position?”. The answer from Hamilton was that, “that is confidential”, quickly followed with his next question.

38. These people treated me with open contempt and they steamrollered right over me with set piece questioning.
Page 3 of 5

39. With our pride and dignity in tatters, browbeaten, and publicly humiliated we then had to walk back through the main office to the smirks and later no doubt the scoffs of the staff. I was so humiliated and in a state of shock that I just could not believe the treatment that had been meted out to us both.

40. It was clear my 28 years decent service to Lancashire which HM The Queen recognised in her award to me of the Fire Service Long Service and Good Conduct Medal meant absolutely nothing to them.

41. We left the building and went home and you can imagine the silent trepidation all the way home. We were simply terrified and certain we were going to be arrested.

42. Broken hearted we believed were social outcasts and entirely on our own with no prospects for the future simply facing complete destitution because Hamilton did not inform us there were others in this position also.

43. How, or where, were we supposed to find this sort of money? In all my life I have never felt so much at my wits end. I believed that this was all my fault and I could not believe this was happening to us. What had we done to deserve all this?
44. On the 7th March 2008 our local paper carried a piece about the benefits shock for Lancashire disabled Fire Service Veterans under the front page headline ‘Betrayed’. Only then did I know we were not entirely alone, after all, and I contacted the FBU and I was given advice.

45. On the 10th March 2008 I received a letter from Hamilton. Again he made reference to police involvement these are the exact words I quote… “You also sought assurances that LFRS would not be contacting the police regarding potential fraud. I advised that the purpose of the meeting was to check the accuracy of information we had received from DWP with you and that an overpayment was established then to look for reasonable means of recovery from you. We have no intention to involve the police.”

46. After this ‘meeting’ I did not believe a single word he said because I sought no such assurance. If I had then I would have confirmed in their minds that I had done something wrong and I maintain to this day I have not.

47. This has been one of the most difficult periods of our lives but it did not have to be this way. If someone had made an appointment to come to my home and explained the problem in a respectful and civilised way then I am sure it could have been resolved one way or another but because it was handled the uncivilised way it was I have lost total trust in anything the LFRS says or does.

48. This is not the same Service I was proud to have been a member of.
Insofar as the matters to which I refer are within my own knowledge they are true; insofar as they are not within my own knowledge they are true to the best of my knowledge, information and belief.

Page 4 of 5
…………………………
Signature:

Date: 29 March 2012.

Page 5 of 5